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Report 1116
Report #1116 Skillset: Dreamweaving Skill: Various Org: (None) Status: Completed Apr 2015 Furies' Decision: Approved. Problem: This report serves as an extension of report 1333. See that report for the problem. Solutions 1-3 are all one solution, separated for ease of reading. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: A) All mana drains in Dreamweaving are converted to ego drains. B) Eternalsleep's requirements are changed to asleep + < 50% ego. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: C) Sleepmist is changed to cause passive sleep ticks. Can be imbued in demense for druids/mages or passives for chemwood users (similar to recent illusions updates). D) Deepsleep becomes a double-sleep hit with a 1 power cost. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: E) Void is changed to a defense for the Dreamweaver, with a small (2-3) power cost. When active, any Dreamweaving attacks used to put someone to sleep (sleepmist, slumber, deepsleep) decrease the chance of waking on each tick for the WAKE counter (15% instead of 25% chance to wake on each tick, or similar). This defense would either last for a set time (e.g. 60 seconds), or for a certain number of attacks (e.g. 5 attacks). F) General tiredness mechanics are adjusted so that players run on their own clock instead of a global clock for tiredness regen, meaning it's no longer possible for players to wake up from tiredness regen immediately after being put to sleep (they'd have to wait one tick of their individual timer before they could wake up naturally). Player Comments: ---on 4/28 @ 05:44 writes: Made a comment on report 1340, these two propositions can't exist without one going, and I think that Minstrelry should take the hit more than this overarching DW report. ---on 4/28 @ 06:13 writes: Rather than devolving this into another argument why 1340 should or should not go in (which was discussed, at length, over Envoys and the concerns addressed again), looking at this report, I'd prefer the E portion to last a set 60s rather than for the next amount of attacks. Overall, I'm in favour of leading DW away from the tiredness mechanic and more onto the ego-drain route to land a kill. ---on 4/28 @ 06:17 writes: 1340 came before 1116. There is no reason to bog this report down due to a proposed report (that came first) which isn't even guaranteed to go in as is, if at all. This report looks good though, I'm pretty down with moving away from all sorts of attrition as a whole ---on 4/28 @ 07:00 writes: I'm a little confused on what "tiredness regen" is. This implies to me the chance to wake on each wake-tic, which iirc is currently affected by endurance not being 100%. How will this work when endurance is gone, if at all, or am I reading this incorrectly? ---on 4/28 @ 08:19 writes: I would agree with a set timer for E. Else agree with report. I assume sleepmist will respect insomnia in this suggestion? ---on 4/28 @ 14:45 writes: I do not see the reason for changing dreamweaving to an ego-based skillset, and it really makes no sense to me to do so. As it stands, it will support all of one organization when it affects six organizations, two of them more than the rest (With Hartstone and Blacktalon not having access to psionics) Definitely not supporting the proposed Solution 1. ---on 4/28 @ 15:28 writes: Which orgs would that be? 4 of the 6 organizations all have TPs. Elaborate please ---on 4/28 @ 15:29 writes: How fast are wake ticks? I'm concerned that this will give a close-to-free triple sleep with no setup every 10 seconds to mages like the Geomancers, who have a 3p timerkill. Getting unlucky (or even lucky, but not waking up in time to cure their sprawl+broken limb+slickness combos and stop the chasm) and having to repeat the procedure every 10 seconds is too much. The ego change hurts the forests (Who have no real ego draining or ego based kills) while either providing no change or a buff to the cities (who have TP ego-based kills). Removing passive sleep is admirable, but honestly - it's the last thing dreamweaving has that makes it at all usable to druids, and this change provides no comparable use to druids as it/they stand. I don't support this change in a vacuum, dreamweaving needs substantial reworks. ---on 4/28 @ 17:29 writes: I suppose I should have been a bit more specific about sleep mechanics when I posted this up. So, here is how sleep currently works: every 3.3 seconds, a global timer fires for every person asleep, which handles health/endurance/tiredness regen - when all three are full, the player wakens automatically. Part F in the solutions changes this to be a per-player timer instead of global, so that you can't get (un)lucky and put someone to sleep .1 seconds before the timer hits, causing the sleep to end instantly. The wake timer is what happens after a person enters the WAKE command, and it fires once per second and has a 25% chance at each tick to wake the person up, and it fires until the player is awakened. The void idea would reduce the chance per tick from 25% to some X < 25%, replacing the idea from report 1333 of having the chance to wake scale based on mana/ego. ---on 4/29 @ 01:20 writes: The initial proposal actually included a tie to mana levels and awake times, but would have caused too much overlap with other manakill builds and thus was switched over to ego, per the suggestion of another envoy. @Raeri: sleepmist will indeed respect insomnia much as any hit of sleep currently does. @Elanorwen: This report is constructed to address problems within the skillset itself, rather than being built to supplement a specific group (Gaudi) as you're implying. However, with this in mind, synergy will always be a part of the group-based dynamic of Lusternia, but the number of orgs this would supplement is much more than just the one you're focusing on. ---on 4/29 @ 01:32 writes: @Enyalida While passive wake tics will be affected by Void, a victim will still be awakened by active/passive damage caused by a demesne if the effects are included (as Rockslide would, to break legs). Barring this (if SM were made to hit last in a meld tic, for example), metawake is still a thing, and mana drains for upkeep become less of an issue for the victim when facing a DW since they'd be shifting over to an egokill method. As far as forests go, these changes could arguably be more effective for druids who can also sap. -chemwood classes stand at the same level as a mage would to upkeep sleep on a victim, but shouldn't be overwhelming overall (subject to testing). Lastly, as far as substantial reworks go, this has been brought up, and been deemed unviable with the current Overhaul project, which I agree with. We have to work within our current scope or keep the sleep attrition which isn't favored by anyone. ---on 4/29 @ 13:57 writes: I personally don't see how this helps any other organization. The comment about how direct damage would wake an enemy is amusing at best. If there was no way to control what effects were in a meld, sure, I'd grant you that there will be something to awaken the target. As it stands, if someone is going for a sleep stack, they will be dampening/not raising their damage dealing meld effects. Metawake is certainly a thing, sure... but only if one doesn't mention the fact that dreamweavers also have a way to strip metawake in the first place. Moving away from mana levels only matters if mana levels affect chance to wake. As they do not in this iteration, I don't see how the change to ego is beneficial. ---on 4/29 @ 15:15 writes: I'm alright with most of this, but very wary of any changes to the wake counter in part (E). Did a quick bit of code to see how a 15% chance of waking on a 1s tick works out sleep duration wise and was seeing a few too many sleeps with durations > 12s and even upper sleep durations extending past 20s. With dreamweavers readily able to drop metawake with Induce/Order, if there is any change to wake timers, I think they should be accompanied with a forced sleep duration hardcap. As to what that hardcap should be? Can debate a bit, my own suggestion would be hardcap of 12s. ---on 4/29 @ 15:29 writes: As an fyi: 15% wake chance (blue) and 25% wake chance (yellow) contrasted: http://fiddle.jshell.net/stbL9kv9/show/ ---on 4/29 @ 16:20 writes: A cap on wake time is a thing that could be done. ---on 4/29 @ 17:21 writes: As it stands, the changes to the wake code are likely to make any combination of dreamweaver + any timed insta king, as well... at a 12s cap on wake timer, a mugwump geomancer can likely deepsleep and chasm without any kind of issue. Add some hindering from the meld and it's an automatic success chasm. I actually hadn't considered that bit, but the more I think about it, the less appealing these solutions become ---on 4/29 @ 20:17 writes: Wouldnt that same meld wake them up anyway due to the damage. iirc many mage meld effects do a little bit of damage so keeping them asleep while the meld is active makes it difficult. lastly if youre fighting a dw geo, it would be pretty obvious what they would be going for, so you should be able to an eye out for it when they get void up. keep alert. I will agree though that maybe we should discuss a way to cure void if it becomes impossible to defend ---on 4/30 @ 01:49 writes: Oh, that's a neat simulation, @Ushaara - thanks. It helps with gauging probability better, and paints a more comprehensible issue than theory crafting could. I agree that theres a good probability DWs + timed instakills like Chasm could be too easily pulled off. Rather than enabling timed instakills even more, the delay on wake time was first introduced to prevent the instantaneous awakens that altogether kill EternalSleeps viability. I like the idea of a hard cap on wake times to curb the probability of an overlong delay, and would lean towards a 6-8s max rather than 12s maybe. As a victim, it looks easier to recover and escape from an 6-8s sleep than it would be from a 12s one, yet still potentially allows for an ES to land. ---on 4/30 @ 02:36 writes: I believe the proposal with a hardcap on sleep at 6-8s will be fine and reasonable enough that a straight sleep->chasm won't really work. Incidentally, I was the one who suggested changing DW sleep (and therefore eternalsleep) to being ego-based, not because I wanted to help boost Minstrels or Gaudiguch, but because I didn't want a mana-scaled wake chance to boost hex wiccans and their really annoying sleep tactics even more. On a related note, if these changes go in, could we remove the effect of adding tiredness levels to a person when they are hit by a sleep attack, please? It was put in, if I remember, specifically to help DWs drain tiredness levels for EternalSleep. Since that should no longer be a factor, let's remove the attrition from sleep attacks. ---on 4/30 @ 03:03 writes: I talked the numbers out a bit more with envoys and found that on a neutral-EQ race, Deepsleep is at about 4.7s cast speed, and Channel (active ego drain) is at a 4.3s cast speed. Assuming an 8s hardcap on sleep delays, even in the unluckiest circumstance, a victim will always wake up (and subsequently cure ego) faster than the DW would who looks to induce sleeps and drains for the EternalSleep kill. Lengthening the delay unfavorably empowers timed instakills, so I'd move to speeding up the base speed of both DeepSleep/Slumber and Channel to 3.5s to allow for a possible chain on a sleeping target before they hit the guaranteed awaken time. They can still wake up randomly between the 1-8s, but this should give DWs the flexibility needed to still work towards a kill. ---on 4/30 @ 03:11 writes: Oh, and with the above, the hardcap should be at 8s so that the speed works out for DWs, but not for timed instakills. As a note, passive ego drains from SleepMist will approximately be 7%+60 every hit, and Channel drains for about double that. It was considered to raise the drain amount of Channel instead of speeding up the two skills, but I wanted to avoid a potential double-haegl situation but for ego. Reducing casting speed for DeepSleep/Channel should manage the goal well within limits. ---on 4/30 @ 06:21 writes: Does sleepmist currently hit on elevation changes as well as room movement? If not, that could be an addition that lets druids bounce their targets to generate ego drains through demesne too if neede, in place of the current bleeding/clotting pressure on mana they have. ---on 4/30 @ 14:04 writes: @Viynain Except that sleepmist will do a sleep hit and can be timed to demesne to immediately put people back to sleep. Dreamweavers can easily drop metawake. No, this change is not better for druids who can sap, that was part of my entire point. This change will NOT make eternalsleep viable by any stretch of the imagination, anything relating to a DW's ability to directly (solo) drain ego to the point of eternalsleep is a total red herring, unless we're rehauling the skillset, at which point more interesting and less gimmicky/unfair things can be slotted in